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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2006 :  11:02:47  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic

This is for “Greek116” about knowing me and being in my group, and all the rest of the Board to whom he (or she) has expressed an opinion.


I have been a member of many groups. For a brief period of time, I also had a talk group of my own. It was very small and by invitation only. I closed it down because it didn’t work.

I had wanted to try something new in talk groups. So, I made some ground rules stating that all members should refrain from giving advice, should speak in terms of sharing his/her own experience, talk in the first person only and respond to anyone else’s post in that same way by pulling anything similar out of his/her own experience and sharing it with the group. My idea was to try to create a forum in which all participants related as equals no matter who they were, what their experience or what their title or position. I invited people to join from various perspectives on the same mental health/illness issues. They were a mix of psychologists, and/or psych survivours, ‘consumers’ and some relatives of labeled people who seemed genuinely to want to help or change things.

It was a relatively simple concept and one I thought I could stay within pretty well, which I thought would allow people to say whatever they wanted, from their own point of view, without IMPOSING that view upon others in the group, or feeling to intimidated to express it if others did not agree with it. I was hoping for a way for different people to feel free speech was OK without anyone getting preachy OR intimidating.

I still think it could have worked and been quite enlightening to all members to hear the various points of view. Instead, there were complaints about the rules, or being reminded of them when they were not being adhered to, corrective advice was given quite frequently and e-mails were sent to me several times about how “sick” other members were understood to be, and how wrong I was to refuse to allow advice to be given for them. There was an attack or two about the agendas of others. A couple of members left. A couple got ejected by me. One who I knew personally and who contributed precisely zero to the group, and then chose to gossip to others outside the group, about what was being said by others INSIDE the group. So, I decided to close it down seeing it as an experiment in communication that failed.

The purpose of this group was not to be ‘nice.’ It was to listen, share and learn something about another’s point of view, even if it was very different, in a way that created EQUAL rights to do so. It was about allowing the expression of some taboo topics as long as it was done in the first person only, without attempt to ‘convert’ others to that point of view; a sort of halfway point between aggressive insistence and stony, or frightened, silence, as I consider both extremes to be counter productive to a goal of equality, and mutuality.
I also believe this imbalance of power is a great deal of the problem in the current mental illness system which is focused, IMO, on getting people to accept themselves as ‘sick’ and without hope of healing rather than what I believe it should be which is to focus on well being and hope for real healing for all. To me it is being done backwards.

I think that at the time, the mix of people and the place they were in, prevented that from happening. Many did not seem to grasp the point behind the rules. Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, who knows?

So, in any case, as for Greek116 here:
If I should ever invite you to join any group of mine again, maybe you should be sure to turn me down, since it is unlikely that having everyone be “nice’ would be my motivation for inviting you. I don’t think you would likely enjoy it, if ‘nice’ is needed for you to feel good there. That is OK if you don’t want to be there, or if you don’t like the group; I just wish you wouldn’t comment on my group to others, without my knowledge, when I don’t have the opportunity to present my own point of view about it, because I don't know about the comments.

Ironically, if you are who I suspect you MAY be, one of your personal complaints to me was that you are forced to be ‘nice’ all the time so it won’t be assessed by others as a “symptom.” Could that be what motivates you here as well?

Or, perhaps I don’t really even know you and you don’t know me either. You could also be someone who is claiming to know me when in fact, I am a complete stranger to you. It has happened before as has someone using my words which they copied from elsewhere and pretending my words are their own words.

In any case folks, I just wanted to clarify a couple of things here so that there is no confusion about my actual identity.

I won’t be staying long, as I am sure that even though I am not a Scientologist and don't promote that view which is, in my opinion too angry and all consuming an abstraction, and I am in fact, quite leery about their motivations myself, I don’t think Dr. “Phil” here is any too interested in my personal point of view either, and this board is HIS baby. (So to speak)I have to respect the rights of others to believe what they choose as long as it is not imposed upon me against my will.

I will post a copy of this on my own blogs for clarification purposes and because I believe in the right to state my own views publicly, and that I must do so, so as not to have my personal identity left to the ‘interpretations’ of others.

I also think more of us must do that before the RIGHT to do so disappears altogether.

Take good care of yourselves,
Patricia Lefave,
The REAL One






The Mystical Madwoman

Welcome Patricia,

I think you would make a great member of our community.

Like you, I believe that it is best when our members DON'T give advice by telling another member "what-they-should-do". Instead, it is much better when they merely state "what-worked/didn't work-for-me". This, I believe, is the best way to show respect for another person.

Of course, if a community member knows of a good source of information on the internet; they are always free to suggest it to other members.

We are actively trying to discourage any member of our community trying to "convert" others to their ideology. We welcome debate, but discourage any ideological orthodoxy.

Patricia, I would like to tell you a little about my philosophy. Being a psychiatrist, I believe that there is a major biological basis for Schizophrenia, Bipolar Disorder, and Major Depressive Disorder. I also know that research has shown that a supportive, loving community can dramatically decrease the incidence of mental illness.

For example, the Old Order Amish (an American farming community that refuses to use any 20th Century technology) have an extremely low rate of Major Depressive Disorder. This extremely close-knit, generous, forgiving, religious farming community has only one-fifth the expected amount of Major Depressive Disorder. That would suggest that the Old Order Amish culture or lifestyle somehow has prevented 80% of their (expected) depression.

Patricia, I only use this as an example of how much we still don't know about mental illness (and how we have to look beyond merely biological causation). My own personal belief is that psychiatry has grossly under-estimated the importance of social support.

My hope is that you will select our communty to be your internet home. Your desire to help others, and your intellectual gifts, are obvious. Welcome to our community.

Phil Long M.D.
Administrator

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greek116
Full Member (100+ posts)

162 Posts
Gratitude: 11

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  21:35:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
I was scrolling the boards when I found this, WOW how did you know it was me Nittanydreamers??? I AM SO SO SO CURIOUS TO KNOW EVERYTHING!!! Well I one day joined your group and after a while ahted reciveing all of the emails and left some of my Groups. I am now with a new one I really like! It is real and true... StoppingVoices. What did I do? I was not rude or anything that I know of I just did not like your group. I would love to know how you found out who I am Nittanydreamers and what I said or did. God bless you and please feel free to Email or IM me!
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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2006 :  12:36:59  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
Hello to Canada's answer to Dr. "Phil" and also to the "Greek."

I am almost out of time today but will answer Dr. Phil's comments sometime next week. As for YOU "Greek": If you really know me then go ahead and contact me at the e-mail address you already have and tell me what group, exactly, you know me from.
I will comment further to you also, after that, next week.


The Mystical Madwoman
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greek116
Full Member (100+ posts)

162 Posts
Gratitude: 11

Posted - 12/03/2006 :  16:20:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
I am not exactly sure what I did and why you are so upset about this and why you mention Dr. Phil like 15 times in your posts. But please send me some email, I no longer have yours... You can use my contact button or PM me for the real Email. I would love to discuss this I am curious to know. Please also feel free to IM me.

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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2006 :  09:17:25  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
,
I am not "in" the profession and I have posted precisely three times here before this.

I don't know you but I get the impression that you are right quite a lot of the time. In fact, I think I may be able to prove that for you just by saying anything.
Perhaps I had best explain a little more completely so that you can see what I am getting with a little more clarity. I will answer all of this resonse from you later this week.
Thanks for your answer.
Patricia lLfave

The Mystical Madwoman
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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2006 :  13:35:35  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
Hi First to Greek

I am referring to this thread here.
http://www.mytherapy.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=152

Your statement about being in my group.

"I know Pat I once belonged to her group, it was not a very nice group."

You were never in MY group. You may have been in someone's group which you believe to BE me, but you were never in my group. Those who were in my group, including the one I thought you might be, still have my e-mail address.
I mentioned Dr. Phil maybe twice by name as it was appropriate to do so. (not ''15 times.'')

I also already stated the ''why'' of my objections to what I found out was being done here so I don't think I need to say that again. I will however make this very clear so as to define who I am.

I am Patricia Lefave. I have just ARRIVED here after being told by someone who read my words being used by someone else, that I was assumed to be already here. I have not been here before. ''Ausie Anna" here is NOT me but is someone else pretending to be me, and using my words as if they were her own. They were copied directly, word for word, from one of my own essays. This has created some confusion and incorrect judgements and also csuses people to answer posts 'as if' they are talking to me, when in fact, they NEVER have been.

As for "'s" responses:
I don't feel any 'flaming anger' and I don't understand what the 'name calling' reference is about either. My emotional feeling is kind of neutral actually and I often feel a bit of humour about all of this. I am not in the 'healing sciences' but perhaps you think so BECAUSE you believe that "Ausie Anna" is me. She is not me.
I also think that suggesting that, if I did not want my work plagiarized, I should not have published it makes the same kind of sense as saying that if a store owner did not want to be robbed, he should not have opened a store and left all that stuff sitting around openly for anyone to take. It sounds to me like blaming the victim of some violation for being violated. I hear this a lot in mental health circles and as often as I hear it it never ceases to surprise me. I also noticed you put quotes around the word "work" as if you wanted to demean it in some way. I wonder why you needed to do that?
The person who is violating someone else's boundaries, especially 'covertly' is the one who is behaving improperly; not the one who objects to it. To blame the store owner for the behaviour of the thief denies the appropriate and predictable feelings of the store owner for being violated and, at the same time, it supports and enables the thief. I believe THAT idea should be going in the exact opposite direction.
I don't find your disagreement 'respectful' but perhaps that is just another of my perception problems.
Strangely, you remind me of someone who used to e-mail me this same kind of raging contempt. I thought she was one of a kind. Perhaps I am right about that. She is the only person I have ever blocked out of my e-mail.
To say that if I publish anything I should expect to have it stolen is a convoluted way of looking at things to me. You state:

"You published your work on your decision. This means that you left the door open to possible theft of information. Which in turns leaves culpability in your hands so to speak. "

The culpability belongs to the person who copied my words and pretended she was me. Period. I do not accept responsibility for other people's actions. (and there is another of hers here pretending my words are her own)

"You are being unfair to people to start stalking them all over the internet...showing your very own personality and mood disorders..."

I find this above statement quite bizarre. I am the one who is supposed to be "paranoid" after all. The stalking remark makes absoultuely no sense to me. I am not interested in 'stalking' anyone, cyber or otherwise.

As for 's second response to me :
I did not say I posted that I was not "in" the profession three times. I said I have only posted HERE, period, three times. I have now told you for the FIRST time, that I am not in the profession. If you read the post you are referring to you can see that. There is nothing I feel I need to 'admit' since I have not tried to conceal anything in the first place.

I doubt if I have Dr. Long "going' . I am sure he has seen and heard much and is not easily taken in by projection etc. I am really sorry if you found HIS friendly manner towards me such an affront. Hope that feeling passes for you. I think I am as much a person of "Psychological substance" as anyone else here, although I don't even think in such terms myself. I am not in a contest, with you or anyone else. I did wonder why you had to attack me for what the Doc said I must admit. It kind of feels like you see YOURSELF as in some sort of contest with ME that I am not in. I do not really understand why that would effect you so much but then I don't actually know you. I am sure you must have your reasons.
I do understand that narcissism is believing EVERYTHING is about oneself, even the relationships between others, sometimes in which you play no real part.
I don't have a website but I do have the blog . I am assuming you are identifying my own blog and not someone else's, although with the confusion of identities here, I can't be sure at this point.
Although I don't really care one way or the other about being "reviewed" by you, I guess I would have to say "No, I don't mind your review" as I think what you have to say, and more importantly HOW you say it, is very important for others to hear. It is all an enlightening experience, for one reason or another. Nothing says who anyone really is like their OWN words I believe. At least that is how I feel myself.
I kind of find it amazing that you would apply the word "rant" to me. My replying to this, or not replying, is not in relation to your needs, nor your attempts to direct me. I don't take my directions from others. I direct myself, just like you do. I am the one who decides what is a waste of my time and what is not. I don't need others to decide these things FOR me. I also think it is interesting that you chose the word "bully" to describe ME.

I can see what you mean about this thread being ridiculous. In that we probably agree. I don't blame you for leaving. Bye now .

Hope you find the people of REAL substance that will make you feel better.
Patricia Lefave
(I am exactly who I say I am.) Who are you?
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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2006 :  13:35:11  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
Dr. Phil,

Thanks for the welcome from you. I am not sure if I am the type of member you are going to be all that enthusiastic about but I do say what I mean and mean what I say. I also agree with you that the style of sharing of experience is the most respectful of the feelings and needs of others and that it also has to be a two way street to work well. (No literal streets involved there) The idea of ‘good’ sources of information is OK as an abstraction but of course it IS a value judgment also. What I consider to be ‘good’ another may find objectionable so this can be a tricky business sometimes. Of course we all have an ideological orthodoxy which we favour and tend to promote to others whether we wish that was true or not. I go by boundaries myself as I have referred to previously. This board is, in the final analysis, your “baby” and as the one who decides where the lines are drawn, I am fully aware that I will only go as far as the leader allows me to go. There are limits here for me that do not exist in the same way in some other place. I am very realistic about that and accept the limitations. That does not necessarily means I agree with all of your philosophy. For example, I (not being a psychiatrist) and out of my own experience, do NOT believe there is a major biological basis for the ‘diseases’ you named and believe this has much more to do with environment than anyone would like to believe. That is not to say that I don’t believe Bio chemical changes take plus under pressure. I am sure they do, it’s just that I tend to see that as effects rather than causes. I won’t belabour the point. I am not trying to ‘convert’ you and I am sure you won’t be able to ‘convert’ me either. So on that one we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. You then stated:

“I also know that research has shown that a supportive, loving community can dramatically decrease the incidence of mental illness.”

Now on THAT point, we can agree. Biological or environmental, support and encouragement towards well being can do wonders for all kinds of people, whatever their beliefs may be on the true cause. Of course, the Old order Amish are a pretty closed society and so they tend to keep their problems inside the group and not seek out psychiatrists to help them so I am sure that may have some relevance to the statistical evidence of that. Still, I myself have been told by another closed group that I think more like a Quaker than most people so perhaps there is something about closed systems that can either help ( or harm, since NO system is perfect)) in ways that the more open societies not see. So I agree that there is still much we do not know about mental illness or mental health either, so I also agree we must all look far, far beyond biological causation. In fact, I will look at the social and personal aspect when I am speaking here and I will leave the biological completely to you. I will offer here only what I’ve got.

Thanks for the welcome. I will leave my membership intact here, for awhile at least, and if there is something I can offer occasionally, I will do so for as long as it seems valuable to me and others to continue to offer it.
Patricia Lefave


The Mystical Madwoman
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greek116
Full Member (100+ posts)

162 Posts
Gratitude: 11

Posted - 12/06/2006 :  12:57:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
Hummmmmm Pat, thanks for informing me of that. As you said you do not get to see all of your posts. You are not that involved in your group so just because I dislike your group does not mean I dislike you. There are millions and billions of Yahoo! users out there worldwide and a few hundred of them were involved in your group.
In my opinion all posts should be previewed before posting. In all of my Groups I do just that.
Oh and I'm so so so sorry about the Dr. Phil thing! I thought you were talking about that Dr. Phil guy on TV, now I dislike him! I did not know you were talking about Dr. Phil Long.
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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2006 :  13:44:46  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
What group are you talking about?
Name the group. I had a group of my own which YOU were never in; so which group do you think that was? You do not know me.
You seem to be reassuring me that NOT liking "My group" does not mean you don't like me. I don't need any reassurance because I do not even know you. So I am asking you directly to SAY which group you are talking about as that is the only way you are going to see what is not being understood here.


The Mystical Madwoman
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greek116
Full Member (100+ posts)

162 Posts
Gratitude: 11

Posted - 12/12/2006 :  16:55:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
Oh yea.... Voice Hearers
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e-pea
Incredible Member (2000+ posts)

5919 Posts
Gratitude: 1001
Very caringVery wiseVery honest

Posted - 12/19/2006 :  04:18:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
Hello Paranoid Patty.

I know you and Aussie Anna are not the same person. I have met her on another group and after readin gyour posts i see you both speak differently and interact differently so you appear to be different people. Did she put the post in quotation marks when she posted it? Some people just do not know the rules on citations versus plagurism.

I would be angry if someone stole my words, Patty. I understand how you feel.

Dr long, the point of this post here is to suggest that maybe this group would benefit from some details about citation, plagursim and copyright. Just to all us members know exactly how to quote a source without appearing to BE the source.

epea

PS Oh dr phil from tv? I don't watch him unless I have nothing else to do. He is not interesting tv for me and i don't really like him... but his personality is kind of interesting. If I met him on a train, i might enjoy talking to him. i like his bare bones approach to self-honesty, if nothing else. Like an unenlightened Wittgenstein whispers in his ear at night. "Psst, the hardest thing a man can do is be honest with himself..."

STOP THE ABANDONMENT OF CHRISTMAS PETS!
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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2006 :  12:25:39  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
quote:
Originally posted by greek116

Oh yea.... Voice Hearers




OK. Now I understand what group you meant. Of course, that group is not "Pat's group," it is a group of which I am a member, one which I like too by the way, as most of the members are very real and honest, but "my" group was run by me and no longer exists so I think you can see the cause for the confusion. Also there is NO group of which I like ALL the members and I don't expect that.
The point I was making in the first place though still stands. You were replying to some other person 'as if' it were me and you felt the need to say you had been in "Pat's group" as if that explained something since it was ''not a nice group.'' (in your opinion)
This kind of thing is frequent I think and I also believe the mix up in communication has much to do with the ongoing problems of those who are labeled as 'schizophrenic' or bi-polar' or 'delusional'. I think that is true in fact, more often than not.


The Mystical Madwoman
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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2006 :  12:39:38  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
quote:
Originally posted by e-pea

Hello Paranoid Patty.

I know you and Aussie Anna are not the same person. I have met her on another group and after readin gyour posts i see you both speak differently and interact differently so you appear to be different people. Did she put the post in quotation marks when she posted it? Some people just do not know the rules on citations versus plagurism.

I would be angry if someone stole my words, Patty. I understand how you feel.





The first thing pointed out to me by another person who knew me was that 'Ausie Anna' had posted and used my name on the post. That is what Dr. Phil (here, not the TV guy )answered 'as if' it was me. Later though she allowed that misidentification to stand and to continue, without correcting it, then posted at least one other, that I KNOW of, 'as if' she were me. It was a quote out of another spot in the same essay as the first one. There may well be more of my work posted here by her which I have not seen. I haven't the time to look through everything to find out.
Had someone I know not pointed this out to me, I would never have been aware she was masquerading as me, since I had never been at this Site.
Thanks for your response and your acceptance that my complaint of 'stolen identity' is a legitimate one.
By the way, I have some similar concerns about Dr. Phil (the American TV guy, I mean)


The Mystical Madwoman
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Paranoid Patty
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2006 :  12:31:38  Show Profile  Visit Paranoid Patty's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
quote:
[i]I like the way you choose to think, and to experience life.......and the clarity of intention, that for me beams brightly from your words..........huge hugs (I believe my hotmail addy is on my profile, for IM or whatevers)

------------
me thinks, The Purpose Of Life, is to learn....to learn to love (aka the absence of fear) --explore u'r Options
w.y.s.i.w.y.g. no?




Yes. I think being who we really are is very important. Thanks for the comments.


The Mystical Madwoman
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warbird
Super Incredible Member (10000+ posts)

43969 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2021 :  12:07:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
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warbird
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Posted - 03/01/2021 :  13:00:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Reply to Topic
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